The Introvert’s Guide to…Defying Expectations

In this episode, Jess and Phil talk about the expectations that people have about what an introvert is capable of and defying those expectations.

Links in this episode:



Jess McAuley, Phil Rickaby

Phil Rickaby  00:01

I’m Phil Rickaby. I’m a writer and performer and I am also an introvert.

Jess McAuley  00:07

And I’m Jess McCauley and I am a theatre maker and I am also an introvert and this is the introverts guide to

Phil Rickaby  00:27

On the introverts guide to we talk about the introvert life and how to live it to the fullest,

Jess McAuley  00:33

we’ll choose a topic and discuss it as well as try to find other helpful hints on social media and the internet at large.

Phil Rickaby  00:41

If you want to drop us a line, we would love to hear from you. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at introvert guide to the number two, and you can find the website at If you want to send us a message. You can do that for the website or you can email us at And remember, we may use your questions or comments on an upcoming episode of The introverts guide to

Jess McAuley  01:07

and if you like the podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts, please consider leaving a comment and a five star rating. Your comments and ratings help new people find the show. But even better, whether you listen on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know someone that might like the introverts guide to tell them about it. Some of our favourite podcasts became our favourites because someone we know told us about them.

Phil Rickaby  01:39

Okay, this episode was sort of suggested by a couple of emails and messages that we got not going to read those out because they’re, they were they don’t fall in line exactly with what we’re covering. But they sort of inspired us. So how many times has this happened to you, Jess? You’re talking to somebody. And you happen to mention that. You’re in theatre, you’re a performer, you’re an actor. But then a little bit later, you mentioned something along the lines of I’m such an introvert, and they respond. Well, how can you be an actor than if you’re such an introvert?

Jess McAuley  02:18

That just happened last week? almost word for word just happened last week? I really, yes. where I work. I work at a wonderful Theatre Company. And I you know, it’s just everybody that works at this company has some attachment to the theatre community and whatever, whether that be past volunteer experience, or just generally this No, they went to school for theatre. I guess the department that I am in is not so much into theatre. They are wonderful, lovely folks, and they have their own artistic backgrounds. But I think it threw them off when I told them I was an introvert. And they were like, No way. No, no, you’d like to socialise though and I’m like, Just because I am a I’m bubbly. Doesn’t mean that I’m going to come to your work party every time though? Just Just be forewarned, I will cancel?.

Phil Rickaby  03:21

Yeah. I mean, I’ve had that that same conversation a number of times with different people. Like the idea that I am a performer is somehow incompatible with being an introvert. And there are all kinds of other people I think, who who experienced the same thing. Some people are fine with public speaking and but they’re also introverts, and some people seem outgoing, but they’re also introverts. And I think that comes down to a misunderstanding about the difference between being an introvert and being shy.

Jess McAuley  03:55

Oh, absolutely. And just coming from that performers perspective of it, especially is that what I think non performers don’t realise is that we are not looking at the audience as a group of friends. We see them as a collective. So when we’re doing like, maybe interactive, one person shows, that’s us working a crowd, certainly. But when we’re doing, let’s say, a show, where there is that fourth wall, there is that separation. You are but a mass to us. You are not individual people at that point.

Phil Rickaby  04:27

Sure. You know, even even doing like an interactive one person show, which, you know, we’ve both done to me when I’m dealing with the audience, when I’m looking at the audience, even though I might be making eye contact or close approximate eye contact with an audience member. I still don’t really see them as an individual. The audience is an entity, you know, just to get super theatre nerdy. In the Rodgers and Hammerstein show, me and Juliet, there’s a song called The big, great big giant or something along those lines, which is a description of the audience, they are this amorphous, dark audience that we can’t see. They’re a giant that reacts and roars and things like that. But we don’t see individuals at all.

Jess McAuley  05:17

Just another heads up for you listeners, I think this is where you’re going to hear, like, hear Phil and I really nerd out with theatre.

Phil Rickaby  05:25

It might be possible it might happen. It might.

Jess McAuley  05:27

It might, it might, it might, but it’s so it’s so true. It’s just, we don’t see you as that one person sitting beside another, we feed off of your energy, certainly, but that’s where it really does end at that point. I think you more so see the way we socialise perhaps after a show. If you were to come up to I can’t speak for you, Phil, but if you were to come up to me after a show, I’m not in that headspace of ready to shake your hand and talk to you. I’m sort of still detaching from the performance.

Phil Rickaby  06:02

The truth of the matter is that years ago, I practised how to react to people after a show. I rehearsed so that I could easily it sound like I was genuinely saying thank you, when someone said that was really great, or whatever it is that they say, I practised so that because my instinct is to is his head down, not even making eye contact going, thanks. Or something like that, like a, like some kind of weird, awkward noise. So I had to practice doing that. And it’s not me, it’s still part of the performance. And that’s what I had to do to be able to, to not like offend an audience member thinking that I’m aloof or an asshole or something. I had to practice it

Jess McAuley  06:50

for sure. Because like those audience members, a lot of the time they’re very excited to meet you. They will stick around and they want to talk to talk to you about the show, but sure, if I may Phil,

Phil Rickaby  07:01


Jess McAuley  07:01

can we hear it?

Phil Rickaby  07:03

Oh, the Yeah. Yeah.

Jess McAuley  07:06

Take a breath.

Phil Rickaby  07:07

No, no, no, I don’t even need it. I don’t even need it.

Jess McAuley  07:09

Oh, perfect. Okay, great.

Phil Rickaby  07:10

Could you give me like a lead in?

Jess McAuley  07:12

Yeah, absolutely. Excuse me, Phil Rickaby?

Phil Rickaby  07:16


Jess McAuley  07:17

Wow, that was awesome. I just saw your show. You were incredible. Great job.

Phil Rickaby  07:21

Thank you. Thank thanks so much. If you if you were to listen to me after a show, you will probably hear a lot of that. That very practiced stammer. Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. Like that’s part of it. It’s it’s like so? Yeah,

Jess McAuley  07:38

I don’t beautiful. I loved it. You mentioned it there. And I was like, Oh, he did beautiful.

Phil Rickaby  07:43

Yeah. Yeah, that was that was part of Thank you. Thank you. But it’s, it’s it’s funny, because before I started, before I practised that I was doing a show. And my reaction to audience members kind of said, Oh, my God, please get me out of here. I just need to get away from these people, please. How do I get away from all of this? And I realised that, you know, for the audience, they if they enjoyed the show, they just want a moment. And so it’s your job as the performer to still give them that moment.

Jess McAuley  08:22

Now, don’t get me wrong. I love talking to audience members. But you do have to learn some defence skills when Oh, yeah, I remember doing The Rocky Horror Show years ago. And I was an usherette. And I was Janet’s understudy. My first and foremost priority was learning to speak to audience members in character and being able to walk the show selling the participation packages and whatnot. It was just interesting because the theatre was overtop of a restaurant. So a lot of these folks would finish the show, go downstairs to the bar and enjoy a meal. But we also share the entrance to the actual theatre like so the actors would have to come down through the bar to go home. You get stopped so many times by audience members, and they see you out of costume young so I was wearing like these leopard print leggings, this spike bra stilettos I pin up style. And they see me coming out my usual like just t shirt and jeans and like some Converse and they’re like, Oh my gosh, you don’t even look like your character anymore. Like, oh my gosh, oh, are you like kinda like that in real life, though? And I’m like, No, no, I’m going home to my hovel to eat like some hot wings right now.

Phil Rickaby  09:41

I think there’s, it’s hard to say what an audience member wants. And this is again, if you’re not interested at all about theatre, I’m sorry that we’re nerding out so much, but this is just part of, of who we are. But I told you what’s gonna happen in here and here it comes. But like the audience like they don’t They don’t necessarily want a piece of you. They want to carry a piece of that show with them, and an interaction with you, if you like, they want to believe that that what they saw on stage is more of who you are unless for some reason they’ve been following your career and they know you play different stuff. But for them, your what they saw on stage and interacting with you is like a, somebody has stepped out of the silver screen, even if you’re not a famous person, like you were larger than life a moment ago.

Jess McAuley  10:33

But, you know, coming to the context of an introvert in a seemingly extroverted position. Yes, it can take people back when they realise that you are not, you’re not the extrovert that they thought you were, do you find that somebody not necessarily is walking on eggshells, but suddenly they’re very careful about what they say,

Phil Rickaby  10:57

I haven’t found that. But I have, what I’ve found is that there’s a bit of a scepticism that like, oh, that can’t be true that you’re an introvert, that can be true. You’re, you were outgoing on stage. You’re a performer, all that stuff. And that’s, it’s so like, Yes, it is, it is actually the thing, I’dm not lying about being an introvert,

Jess McAuley  11:21

you feel like you have to prove yourself suddenly. And I mean, I have my particular job, I have to be on the phones, not necessarily all day, but I am talking to patrons, and I am doing some fundraising. I think a couple of times that has come up that I am an introvert, just you know, with conversations that maybe go on a little bit too long, not that that’s ever a bad thing. And there’ll be that sudden moment of a really great to talk to you on the phone was just such a pleasure. And I’m like, Oh, thanks. You should see me in person, I am an awkward mess. We share a good laugh, and then suddenly, it will come out like just do. Usually I’m an introvert, I don’t really like being on the phone. But with you. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much. It’s really great to navigate the conversation that way. But when you’re suddenly face to face, I feel as though I have to put on my I have to show you I am an introvert. And then I find that this there’s this weird dance coming up suddenly of like, Oh, so but like you like talking to me, is that it you just like talking to me? And I’m like, no. And yes.

Phil Rickaby  12:28

When I was an usher at one of the large theatres in in Toronto, I found because we do, we do things as an usher that in person, if I was not being paid to do it, I would have to breathe into a paper bag. Before doing. We would make small talk with audience members, we would people would talk to us and you know, like, tell us about their day like all of this stuff, people would just like, get chatty with us. And intermission, if we’re standing by one of the exit doors to make sure that people aren’t using the emergency exit. We ended up having these like, conversations with people all things that under any other circumstance, I would not feel awesome about also sometimes having to go over and like, oh, here’s one, like run out and tell that person to stop taking pictures of the show. These are all things that if I wasn’t if it wasn’t my job, I would not be able to do. But because it’s my job because I have a specific purpose. I’m able to do it because that’s the entire reason I’m here.

Jess McAuley  13:34

Yeah, you think you think my phone anxiety would be just absolutely skyrocketing as soon as I pick up that phone? But no, I’m being paid to do this. Yeah, there is definitely a difference.

Phil Rickaby  13:45

There’s a difference. There’s also like you have your calling for a particular purpose. All of that stuff. This is all its particular purpose. And that makes it a little bit easier. Sometimes you have a script to work from sometimes you have talking points, you know what you’re doing. That’s not at all like real life.

Jess McAuley  14:04

No, I know, not not in the least, you know, I feel like as a performer, it’s awesome to talk about being an introvert and how it can actually benefit me, I’m a great listener, and I’m a great listener on stage, therefore. But when it comes to any other work context, there’s this other professional side of me that I know I need more recharge time with. So I savour my weekends. I savour those co workers that just know when I need to be quiet, and I need to just keep to myself. That’s difficult to find that’s, that’s difficult to navigate.

Phil Rickaby  14:40

No, absolutely. And that that is one of the things is that, you know, just because it’s because we have a role to play in whether it’s on the phone or as an usher or whatever it is, that makes a little bit easier, but that doesn’t take away of the drain that it is. It’s still just as much of a drain so you need your time to to focus recharge. Otherwise, you’re just like a shell.

Jess McAuley  15:03

Mm hmm. Have you found that bringing up the conversation of introversion and extraversion in work? Have you found that your workspaces become a little bit more accessible with that, or

Phil Rickaby  15:14

I mean, we’re mostly work from home so you can’t get much more introvert friendly. Then we’re there’s the The downside is that I really did enjoy working with people that I worked with, or that I work with, I enjoyed the occasional banter I enjoyed, like being in the room with them. So I’ve lost that because we’re mostly work from home. At least we’ve been work from home for over a year now. And when things go back to normal will be predominantly work from home. But it’s still like, like, now this is like the introvert dream, right? Like, nobody’s talking to me unless they have a purpose. There’s no like, small talk happening. It’s gorgeous.

Jess McAuley  15:54

I’m going to share something that happened at work today. That gave me a dose of what’s going to be in store for me. Oh, please do. We just got in from the weekend. We work Monday to Friday. And I’m going to the sentence is going to send a chill down your spine. Phil.  I’m ready, I’m ready.  A supervisor called me on the phone today.

Phil Rickaby  16:15

What? No, stop. Wait, hold on.  Oh, no, no, no,

Jess McAuley  16:17

we’re not even -. Oh, no, no, no, you’re ready?

Phil Rickaby  16:22


Jess McAuley  16:22

just to ask how my weekend was?

Phil Rickaby  16:27

No, no, no, no,

Jess McAuley  16:29

they did a check in

Phil Rickaby  16:30


Jess McAuley  16:30

he did a check in with me.

Phil Rickaby  16:31

You can add know what you can schedule that and it doesn’t have to be on the phone. We can do a video call. That’s fine.

Jess McAuley  16:37

It could have been an email

Phil Rickaby  16:39

it absolutely could have been email ,could have been a text message ,could have been a slack message. Could have been anything other than a phone call. Just just putting that out there.

Jess McAuley  16:46

I you know what I told them I had a laugh on the phone and like, you know, man, you gotta warn me. You gotta warn me when these things happen. I’ve got my coffee. I’m in my jammy jams still, like come on?

Phil Rickaby  16:55

Did did they just call you out of the blue?

Jess McAuley  16:57

They did the workday and already started. It was like 1130 it was just Hey, you know, I just wanted to say how your weekend was How you doing?

Phil Rickaby  17:04

Like, there’s only one thing that makes this worse than that. Only one thing is worse than that. When your boss sends you a message says, Hey, got a minute. Like, that’s the message not? Not Do you have a second, I want to talk to you about this. It’s it’s “got a minute”?

Jess McAuley  17:21

a tear came to my eye.

Phil Rickaby  17:22

Because that’s like, you’re now you’re like, Okay, I have to answer. But what comes after? Yes. What would what is behind this God a minute. I always find that so rude when that’s the question “do you have a sec”. With no other context.

Jess McAuley  17:38

I okay, I hate to say it, but I am guilty of it. Only just because I see that my supervisors are always in a meeting. So it’s just my way of just going like, you know, hey, is it Are you free for a second? Can I ask you a question? I’m still training as well. So I’m very, I’m very much going to be asking a lot of questions. It’s just what I do.

Phil Rickaby  17:59

Sure. I want to say though, that I think there’s a difference between when you say got a minute, and when your supervisor says, got a minute.

Jess McAuley  18:08

Exactly. They Okay, so they teased me. They teased me. They were like, you got to stop saying that, I think I’m in trouble. Like, I just started? What consequence?

Phil Rickaby  18:16

How can I be the one getting you in trouble? Unless they know something that you don’t?

Jess McAuley  18:24

Yeah, exactly. Like, oh my gosh, but no, it’s been a little brutal. So I’m getting not in a bad way. They’re lovely human beings. I love them. I love them. I love them. But I did have to tell them again, just as a heads up, when we go back into office, you as the extrovert. And me as an introvert with social anxiety, I will full on be relying on you to end the conversation. So beforewarned…

Phil Rickaby  18:51

so one of the things about and uh this isn’t just about being a performer, there are plenty of positions that people can be in, or ways that they behave where people don’t believe that it’s possible that they’re an introvert. Maybe in a in a group, they can be outgoing. They’re a friendly person, they seem outgoing they seem friendly one on one. A lot of times people are so friendly. How can you be an introvert? And that’s like a misunderstanding. It all boils down to a misunderstanding about what an introvert is, as opposed to what being shy is?

Jess McAuley  19:30

For sure, because I mean, sometimes it can be hard to not get offended, because it can sound like Oh, you’re but you’re so friendly. Oh, but you’re so talkative. You’re so you know, to me, I maintain my professionalism in my friendliness. I maintain it in my ability to be able to turn on my on and off my talkativeness gregariousness is there

Phil Rickaby  19:55

is this Yes. Hey, go look into cooking. Yeah,

Jess McAuley  19:59

um I’ve worked really hard on that. And sometimes it can be hard to not get myself down about it. Because I feel as though we’re robbing introverts of a skill. When it’s really we realise already that this world is dominated by extroverts.

Phil Rickaby  20:16

Could you elaborate on that? robbing introverts of what skill?

Jess McAuley  20:21

I think what I’m trying to say is like, I feel like we’re reminded we’re forgetting that introverts can be in these positions, we can certainly have more to us than just being introverts, because like we’ve said before, you’re never fully introverted. Sure. You’re never fully extroverted though, as well. So I think whenever we say how can you do that? You’re an introvert. I think you’re forgetting that I am a human being with more to me than just my introverted ness. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think that’s why sometimes it’s hard for me to not get a tiny bit. I’m not saying I’m like sitting there like now upset at you know, just a bit, just a bit.

Phil Rickaby  21:02

The thing about that is that the media has not necessarily been wonderfully kind about introverts. When introverts are portrayed, I think that they are often conflated with shy people as well. So somebody is an introvert, but they’re also shy, like, and those things can go hand in hand. But not necessarily, you know, the big, those are two different things that can occur in one person. So you know, we’re sort of many of us are sort of our the way that we are in the world, and the way that we act with people can kind of give the lie to what people’s expectation of being an introvert is.

Jess McAuley  21:46

I think we find in those conversations us as introverts, we do find ways to navigate them. Yeah. I think finding one of those quick little calling cards, she can say for yourself, like you do with your scripted greetings to the audience member after

Phil Rickaby  22:00

the show people who say, yeah, yeah.

Jess McAuley  22:04

And you’ve really mastered the stammer, that was beautiful.

Phil Rickaby  22:06

Thank you. So thank you. That’s very practice so that it doesn’t sound rehearsed. Just saying.

Jess McAuley  22:11

Right. And I think that’s a good piece of advice, though, to pass off to introverts, it’s, you know, don’t be afraid to rehearse something.

Phil Rickaby  22:17

Sure, rehearsing to the point where it doesn’t sound rehearsed. Like, you’re not trying to remember it, it needs to be second nature. And that’s what I’ve done. I could just like drop into it. You know, one of the things that I will that I will share with with you and our audience, is that on my other podcast stage where the I have talked to actors and performers and other theatre people, for 290 episodes, as we’re recording this 290 hour long episodes, so over the last four years, and I can tell you that most of the people that I have spoken to, will admit that they are actually introverts.

Jess McAuley  23:01

It’s not surprising. No, not at all. I think it just First of all, also, kudos, holy stage worthy is a little Canadian gem, by the way, just just a little gem. Why do you think that? Do you think when the performance sector just bringing it back there for a moment? Do you think it’s more introverts than extroverts?

Phil Rickaby  23:23

I think I do actually, I think that there are more introverts than extroverts in, in acting in theatre. I think that we have this. This there’s two to schools, I think, two reasons why we think that most that actors have to be extroverts. And remember, if we look back at some of our other episodes, I spent a good chunk of of life thinking that that was true that if I was an actor, I had to be an extrovert. I must be because I’m an actor. But there’s two things number one, because of the conflation between introvert and shy, people think that those anybody who can get up on stage must be an extrovert. And also, we see those people who are at parties schmoozing their way around the room. If that’s part of the business, well, then I guess that everybody who’s an actor is an extrovert. And that’s just not true.

Jess McAuley  24:25

I think specifically with our listeners, just with what we’ve seen with letters that we’ve been getting about this topic, is, you may be tempted to feel a bit self conscious when someone brings it up. I think the key here is to remember that you have impressed somebody so much. So just to bring it to a point here of where I felt there was a need to be not a need but a moment of just feeling offended. Instead, I recognise that that is a moment of self consciousness. Yeah. This person is just so taken with how charismatic I must be that they need to point it out to me. And I think as a performer, I’m going to pass this on to you lovely folks is that one thing we get used to as actors, anybody who steps out on stage, you have to be ready for a naysayer a heckler. Or somebody that may put their foot in their mouth. And again, learning just to navigate those moments of maintaining yourself and your composure. Don’t, don’t fly away, like me. Stay in the moment and feel a bit of a compliment, I guess, I guess you can turn it as a compliment.

Phil Rickaby  25:42

You should treat it as a compliment, actually. Because what that person has, is essentially saying, You’re not what I expected. As an introvert, you’re not what I expected. And we can say thank you, or however we want to respond to that. Don’t be afraid to just take it as a compliment. It’s not meant as an insult.

Jess McAuley  26:03

Yes. And you’re showing you’re showing an extrovert or somebody is an ambivert, an ambivert. Or maybe an introvert themselves. You’re showing them the complexity of the community too, right? Yeah,

Phil Rickaby  26:14

sure. I’ve actually been asked I’ve been people who are introverts have been amazed that somebody who is an introvert can also be a performer.

Jess McAuley  26:22

Mm hmm. Yeah, they it’s it’s news. It really is news.  my favourite thing to tell people is whenever I tell them, I’m an introvert. I’m like, I’m an introvert. I have a podcast about it. That’s a good talking point, right? Yes. You know, even to this degree, like, you know, you still even me as an introvert doing a podcast with you, Phil, I still have to challenge myself. We’re friends. We I’ve known you for a while now. But it still can be a challenge.

Phil Rickaby  26:52

Absolutely. But that’s the thing is that just because it’s a challenge, just because getting on stage is a challenge or meeting the audience afterwards is a challenge or, or doing a podcast with somebody is a challenge. That doesn’t make it bad. It just makes it an accomplishment.

Jess McAuley  27:10

It’s worthwhile. If something wasn’t challenging, it’s not worthwhile. And you as the introvert when you step into a workspace that may make you uncomfortable at some points or it’s it’s the big challenge of the day, you have the ability to walk away from that day, feeling so good about yourself. allow that to be a moment of joy, go home, recharge and get ready for the next day.

Phil Rickaby  27:41

on social media, we asked: our co hosts, Jess and Phil are both performers. Often when people find out that they’re introverts their responses. Well, how can you be a performer then? Do you sometimes feel that the perception of introverts limits where people think you can do what introvert expectations Do you defy or even blast past? May says, because I’m outgoing and chatty. People don’t understand that I need massive amounts of alone time. They think my love of cancelling plans pre pandemic is lazy or flaky. I am lazy. But when I make plans, I generally want to follow through. But sometimes, by the time things roll around, I just don’t have it in me. Or I can only join for half an hour. But I can sing bad karaoke to a bar full of strangers.

Jess McAuley  28:29

Absolutely. Again, that doesn’t mean I’m never going to go to a work party or I’m never going to go to that that Christmas party that had karaoke. It just means I want you to know I am not going to be there all night. I’m not going to be at every single one. But darn it, I’m here for you.

Phil Rickaby  28:45

Yeah, I stay until I could, as a non drinker. I sense when people have reached a point where I just am not going to be able to deal with it anymore. There’s a certain point of the night where I realise I’m done. And that’s when I go.

Jess McAuley  29:01

fair enough! run run for the hills, Phil.

Phil Rickaby  29:05

Oh, I do. I do. I’m gone. I’m gone once once. Once my coworkers are the people hit the point where I’m essentially like, I You guys are so out of control. I can’t deal with this. I’m gone. Yeah, as

Jess McAuley  29:16

soon as the esses start becoming elongated and the eyes have no point of focus anymore. It is hometime

Phil Rickaby  29:23

I find there’s a certain volume that people get to where it’s like oh, oh, okay. Um, yeah.

Jess McAuley  29:31

And the invasion of personal space coming in?

Phil Rickaby  29:34

Oh, yeah. People like sir coming in like really close and you’re leaning like right up in your face. They’re close talkers when they’re drunk. No, thank you. Jess, are you a close talker when you get drunk/ No sound reacts there to something I saw you like you were like I thought oh shoott close talker.

Jess McAuley  29:51

What I am is when I’m around my friends, people I like genuinely love. I am very much the I am so glad you’re Hear You have no idea like, Oh my gosh, like okay, so after this is done after this is done, I swear we need to go to a party again. You’re fine. You’re fine.

Phil Rickaby  30:11

I have. I have a co worker who is when when she gets drunk, she tells you how much she respects you, and how much she’s glad that she works with you. And she did this with years ago she did this with with one employee and who was new, and didn’t know that this is what she did. And then was like, Oh my god, I’m so flattered. Like all this stuff. She’s like, respects me so much. He’s so glad she worked with me. And then she overheard her like two minutes later saying the exact same thing for another co worker and was so offended, like, Oh my god, I thought that was just for me.

Jess McAuley  30:49

I know. It’s like, there’s just no way to come back from that either, right? No, exactly. Like, if I were to stick by all the people, I said, You truly are like my closest friend, I would have the most friends in the whole world. Seriously. It’s too many to count guys.

Phil Rickaby  31:08

Joey said, I remember in college, there was a show in winter, I was cast to play the role of Satan. And it raised a few eyebrows because I was and still am very quiet and reserved around most people. I even tried to play the role with a calm, even keeled control until my director got me to fill the character with fire and brimstone and short temper. I think I frightened some of my classmates that day and I definitely frightened some people in the audience who knew me.

Jess McAuley  31:35

Okay, but How fun is it as an actor to trick audience people

Phil Rickaby  31:41

100% it’s the best

Jess McAuley  31:43

is absolutely has to be the reason number one number one reason why I love being onstage I love tricking you.

Phil Rickaby  31:52

The draw for me was that on stage, I can be an extrovert on stage, I can be whatever I need to be I can be different people I can I can I can I can do so many different things that I would never do in person. But on stage. It’s easy.

Jess McAuley  32:13

It has been so framed that I was able to play a villain. I’ve been able to play a romantic lead. I’ve been able to play just a drunk person at a bar one time and it was hilarious. It has been so great. It’s been you know, an I choose this word carefully. It’s been an honour to be able to play these things. And know that that is me. That is what I love to do the most and I can be whoever I want to be. And that goes for outside of the stage. I think that’s something that was taught to me is that I know who I am, I’m comfortable in who I am. And one artist is going to be different from the other. And whether that person is another introvert but more gregarious, less gregarious, more socialised. It doesn’t matter. There’s room for everybody. And that goes for outside of the performance spaces too. There is room for us all.

Phil Rickaby  33:07

I think that’s that’s the that’s sort of an important point is that be comfortable with who you are. Especially as you know, be comfortable that you’re an introvert. Once you’re comfortable with that, you have so much freedom within that, your freedom outside of that, because you’re comfortable with it. That means that that you are now comfortable in your skin. If you learn anything, if we teach you in any of our episodes, anything is to be comfortable with being an introvert, because that will be so freeing.

Jess McAuley  33:38

It’s so true. It’s that’s why this podcast is here also is we have crafted a nice little community here. I love getting messages from you folks. And it’s things about your successes, how you have one you feel you are more of yourself because imagine being an introvert or even an extrovert it can happen for them too. But being an introvert and not being who you are and people around you are sensing you are not you. There is something fake about that. You are not going to go far you are not going to enjoy your station you’re going to forget what you’re passionate about. Accepting who you are accepting your limits where you can excel is one of the most rewarding things in your life.

Phil Rickaby  34:27

Shall we go to the internet?

Jess McAuley  34:29

We shall. There is one much like a lot of introverted knishes out there. It needs to be reminded that introverts can thrive in extroverted spaces. We do have those moments where we feel that you know again, as an example, performance being the extroverted space, how is it that you’re an introvert and you’re thriving? You can certainly find as many articles as you can about, about why introverts can thrive. But I do want to highlight two points that I found on the Harvard Business Review site. And it was just an article called can introverts thrive in extroverted careers. And it’s really a simple read. There were just two points, and I thought they were really good, they encumbered everything that we want to talk about. But introverts are great listeners. Unlike extroverts, introverts aren’t known to jump to conclusions. And as a result, they Garner more attention and appreciation from an audience when they do speak. And also introverts are adaptable. So if personality is measured along an introvert extrovert spectrum, it is evident that the kind of introverts who enter extroverted workspaces are not extreme in their tendencies. They inherently trust, their own ability to assimilate and at the very least, are up for a challenge. And I thought to myself with that is how true is this in a performers context as well? Because we are well, you know, Phil, and I, if you’ve never been in a, in any sort of theatre performance training space, we had to go into studios, and we had to really become vulnerable. We had to be vulnerable in front of people we weren’t too familiar with. But by the end of the year, you’re super close, you know, everything about each other, and we had to get graded on it. adaptability is in our nature. I know how to get up on stage. And if something messes up, I know I’m paying attention and I’m listening that I can work with that. If you can apply that to your workplace introverts, and you can accept who you are, what your capabilities are. Those two things listening and adoptability are going to come second nature to you.

Phil Rickaby  36:42

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I don’t have anything to add to that.

Jess McAuley  36:55

Did we learn anything?

Phil Rickaby  36:57

We learn anything. Hmm.

Jess McAuley  37:00

I think you and I were on fire this episode. And I feel listeners we want to know what you learned is nothing more.

Phil Rickaby  37:11

If I learned anything, it’s that being comfortable as it is. And remember when we started this podcast, part of our reason for doing this is because we struggled to be comfortable as introverts. That was part of our struggle. How can we as introverts operate in a world that seems to be made for extroverts, that was the premise. And that’s the kind of thing that we’ve done. Being comfortable as an introvert is completely freeing.

Jess McAuley  37:44

I think what I’m reminded of is exactly that. And reminding myself that I can practice responses to get myself comfortable, because that is part of accepting who I am, is not giving a front. It’s not giving an excuse or proving anything. It’s just a I’m Jess McAuley. I’m a theatre maker and an introvert. What do you want from me?

Phil Rickaby  38:07

Yeah, do you want that’s the other thing is don’t is is rehearsing like, honestly, if there’s something that you have to do, and you have to do it on the regular practice, saying, practice, practice saying it so that it’s happening without you having to think about it without you having to to even put effort into it. It rolls off the tongue naturally because you’ve rehearsed it enough. That it’s that it’s, it’s, it’s just there. Thank you, thank you very much. Like it just, it just happens, and you don’t have to work on it because you practised that’s super helpful.

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