Do you ever feel like you’ve been singled out at a gathering, becoming the center of a conversation you never wanted to be part of? We’re cracking open the less-spoken realities of being an introvert and the social punishment that often comes with it. This episode paints a vivid picture of the uncomfortable moments we introverts face, sometimes at the hands of well-meaning loved ones.
The conversation dives into the lack of empathy behind passive-aggressive questioning of introverts- a painful practice that can start from school age and continue into adulthood. We share our personal encounters with this kind of social punishment, hoping to illuminate a topic that many introverts grapple with but seldom talk about. But fear not, this dialogue isn’t just about airing grievances; we’re here to arm you with coping strategies too.
Navigating these social obstacles can be daunting, particularly when you’re grasping for the right words in those heat-of-the-moment situations. Through shared experiences and advice, we explore the power of silence, or perhaps a well-placed stare, as effective responses. As we wrap things up, we also touch on the costs of running this podcast and how you, our trusty listeners, can help us carry on. Let’s remember, our aim isn’t to change who we are, but to better understand and negotiate our world as introverts.
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Transcript auto generated.
0:00:00 – Phil Rickaby
Why, why, why does like starting suddenly become like a thing? It’s like oh, I’m starting, I know it’s.
0:00:07 – Jess Gorman
It’s because, like we’re so used to like the whole, like it’s your go, oh right yeah, sorry oh, yeah me okay nine times out of ten, it’s you though.
0:00:19 – Phil Rickaby
I am Phil Rickaby and I am a writer and performer, and I am also an introvert.
0:00:25 – Jess Gorman
I’m Jess Gorman and I am a theatre maker and I am also an introvert, and this is the introverts guide to.
0:00:44 – Phil Rickaby
On the introverts guide to, we talk about the introvert life and how to live it to the fullest.
0:00:50 – Jess Gorman
We’ll choose a topic and discuss it, as well as try to find other helpful hints on social media and on the internet at large. If you want to drop us a line, we would love to hear from you.
0:01:04 – Phil Rickaby
You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at introvertguide2, the number two, and you can find the website at introvertsguideto.com. If you want to send us a message, you can do that through the website or you can email us at introvertsguide2stuff at gmail dot com. And remember, we may use your questions or comments on an upcoming episode of the introvert’s guide to.
0:01:27 – Jess Gorman
And if you like the podcast and you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a comment and a five star rating. Your comments and ratings help new people find the show. But even better, whether you listen on Apple Podcasts, google Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, if you know someone that might like the introverts guide two, tell them about it. Some of our favourite podcasts became our favourites because someone we know told us about them.
0:01:59 – Phil Rickaby
So, jess, I’m going to give you a phrase. We’ve mentioned this phrase before on this show. I know I already don’t like where it’s going.
0:02:11 – Jess Gorman
I know, we know where the topic is.
0:02:16 – Phil Rickaby
So you can probably guess what the phrase I’m going to say is.
0:02:20 – Jess Gorman
Well, it’s probably going to be like one of the three.
0:02:24 – Phil Rickaby
I’m going to say well, look who finally decided to join us.
0:02:29 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, that’s the one I hate the most.
0:02:31 – Phil Rickaby
I know it’s the one you hate the most and that’s why I decided to use it, because today we’re talking about social punishment.
0:02:42 – Jess Gorman
Oh, we talk about it. We’ve talked about it, we’ve mentioned it, we’ve gotten so many emails about it. It’s time. It’s time to unpack it, for sure.
0:02:55 – Phil Rickaby
So for someone who’s been fortunate enough not to experience social punishment, could you describe it?
0:03:04 – Jess Gorman
I’ve never experienced social punishment.
0:03:07 – Phil Rickaby
No, I mean, let me say that again, let me rewind and say what I meant to say. So, for those who may not have experienced social punishment, could you describe it for us?
0:03:24 – Jess Gorman
It’s that feeling of making a choice. You’re making a choice that already puts you in an uncomfortable position, but you’ve decided that you’re going to pump yourself up and do it. You finally did it and, sure enough, as you enter in to this circle of hell, you never even wanted to be, and to begin with, somebody usually a well meaning loved one, in most cases Not all the time, but in a lot of cases has to single you out and they think it’s funny, they think they’re just making light of the situation, but it’s a passive, aggressive moment and it singles you out and it’s embarrassing.
0:04:08 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I mean you’ve got that moment when your parents say you’re having some kind of party, they’ve had some adult people over and those people have kids, and you’re like I don’t want to do it. You go to your room and you’re reading a book or whatever, and after a while you’re like I know, I have to make an appearance, or maybe it’s just I’m thirsty, so I’m going to go down to the fridge and get a drink. But of course, to do that you have to do it in front of all of the people. And you go down to the fridge.
0:04:42 – Jess Gorman
I just want my basic human pizza.
0:04:44 – Phil Rickaby
I just want to get like a pop or something or a soda for our American friends and I open the fridge and before I can grab the drink and run back upstairs, mom is like well, look, who decided to join us.
0:05:01 – Jess Gorman
And then you hate to be the disappointment, but you got a dash, but you can’t, can’t now, no, but you want a bubbly.
0:05:09 – Phil Rickaby
You want to. You’re just like because, if you know what, if nobody had said anything, you probably would have stayed. That’s right. If nobody had said anything, you would have been content to maybe socialize a little bit, talk to the other, talk to the adults, talk to some of the kids or whatever that are also there, but as soon as because you’re being called out for it, you’re done. Forget about it.
0:05:35 – Jess Gorman
Oh, absolutely, if you become the topic of conversation. There is nothing more hellish than that and being in the room and being the topic of discussion when you didn’t even consent to it.
0:05:48 – Phil Rickaby
Oh, and you know, it’s probably because if they say it in front of other people, then they’re going to. They jump into the conversation to be like, oh, do they do that a lot? Yeah, they do that all the time. They always hide out in their room. They don’t come down and socialize when we have people over and you’re just wanting to die.
0:06:07 – Jess Gorman
And then the worst part is when that the people that they’re chatting with do the whole like oh, my son, johnny, does the same thing. He is such an outcast. Sometimes I swear I can’t get a read on him and you’re just like great, now I’m with Johnny the outcast.
0:06:24 – Phil Rickaby
Now what do I do? Or it’s a cousin or somebody like that, but you know, the thing they do then is they look at you with pity.
0:06:32 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, and I don’t need to be pitied.
0:06:35 – Phil Rickaby
All we wanted was a drink, or we came downstairs out of obligation because we knew that we had to. And what did we get out of it? Nothing but like social punishment for just interacting after resting up to do it.
0:06:50 – Jess Gorman
And those moments are hard to recover from, like they really are hard to recover from. I’ve had those moments and I have nonstop thought about it of all the different ways I could have responded, but there doesn’t seem to be one response that I can just nail down and think that’s the one. I don’t feel rude, I didn’t hurt anybody’s feelings, because that’s something we all struggle with is how do I make a boundary while not hurting the other person’s feelings?
0:07:21 – Phil Rickaby
I know part of me as a teenager is a bit of the you know what? I want to snapy come back here. Also, the fact that you’ve been, you’ve had your feelings hurt, so now you’re like I need to snap, I need to snapy come back. And I don’t know about you, but my snapy come back sounded like yeah, I did, or something like that.
0:07:46 – Jess Gorman
So it would be really bad. And then suddenly if you’re in a crowd or in a group of people that called you out, then you get roasted.
0:07:56 – Phil Rickaby
0:07:56 – Jess Gorman
And then it gets worse. Nothing worse than that. It’s one thing with your mom, but when you’re with like a group of like aged folk, You’re done.
0:08:10 – Phil Rickaby
I will say a story.
Years ago I had a friend and they lived in a small town in sort of like north Eastern Ontario, northwestern Ontario, not like like above the Great Lakes, but like just near superior, the near like here on. They were from Kincardine, Ontario, and I went to visit them. I was a teenager and their parents had wanted me to come up and like spend the week, so it was a great week. You know, I went out to this town and my friend is a small town, so you know it didn’t small town thing, swimming, that sort of thing. And then occasionally the friend would have people over and she liked a really big party, so she would have a bunch of friends over and I would stay in the room that was mine, the guest room, and occasionally pop out, but almost like hide out because I was just she knew why everybody and I knew nobody, and so I would go out and somebody would be like oh hey, there you are, heard so much about you, thanks for joining, or something like that, and you just like I’m going back.
0:09:18 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, son of a bitch. No, I get it, though, and it’s like I love when people say we’re so glad that you came out. But something in the back of my head goes were you thinking about me while I was in the other room, in the sense of like? Are they thinking I’m being a hermit? Do they think I just don’t like anybody? It was just like our last episode. I’m not rude, I’m not being arrogant and like. It just suddenly gets you self-conscious and so self-aware and they come from a fun place, but again they’re more passive aggressive than anything.
0:10:00 – Phil Rickaby
I do wonder if there’s a bit of a. There’s a because there could be a little bit of a bite to it, right, because that oh look who decided to join us? That’s a dig, right. There’s a dig in there that might be passive aggressive, but it’s still um, it has a slight edge or meanness to it, which, for sure you know, is not exactly the kind of thing that makes us feel welcome in this space. Even though they are, they don’t know what they’re doing. They don’t know that they are shaming you somehow, because to me it seems obvious that that is a shaming comment. They think they’re just being like I don’t know, somehow encouraging that you should have been down earlier or something. I don’t understand what the driver is for these comments, but yeah.
0:10:52 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, I don’t either. Like you know, when you think about if it’s an encouragement, there’s a sense of positive reinforcement that they think they’re getting at. But with a reinforcement something’s being added. An encouragement per se, right, but it feels more like a punishment because something’s being taken away in that moment which is our sense of confidence, right, and therein lays the confusion for the one who doled out this punishment. So it’s just, I get it it. It can feel encouraging, it can feel like we’re pumping somebody up. We wanted you here, so glad you decided to join us. But how can we now navigate a social environment when I feel like all eyes are on me?
I have been trying to develop over the years ways of turning it back and, just in a healthy way, deflecting. I don’t know how many other healthy ways there are to deflect. I don’t know if it’s necessarily healthy, but I’m trying in, even if it means just quickly changing the subject, just like oh yeah, just coming to get a drink anyway, are you guys having a good time? And then just leave it at that. Every time I find that someone is trying to still come back to me and keep asking well, why don’t you socialize? Why aren’t you around. You know why don’t you ever come to the parties? Then it’s just a quick like I don’t know. I just don’t really feel like it. Anyway, how long have you guys been here for the end town long, and then just move on. But it’s not that simple. Sometimes it can be relentless.
0:12:36 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, because it can be started by one person and then continued by another, and suddenly everybody in the room is sort of like asking you why you didn’t come down sooner or whatever. Do you have a sense of? And you know, I don’t know, and you know as people who have had this done to them we may not have an accurate sense of what’s behind it, but do you have a sense of what is the driver of these socially punishing statements or questions?
0:13:11 – Jess Gorman
I feel like there’s a base of frustration and lack of like, lack of empathy. I feel like if you understand somebody, then pointing things out like that is not necessary. If you yourself are not introverted which majority of the times with our extroverted friends seems to be the case they don’t tend to understand, then they don’t understand introversion and why we are the way that we are, and again they fall right into it. So I think they get frustrated, and isn’t that kind of where passive aggressiveness can come from. It’s a contained frustration.
0:13:55 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, frustration, and also I think you’re right that it comes from not understanding, or not Like really understanding, why we’re not in the room socializing, because if somebody doesn’t really know the difference, if they’ve seen introversion as a choice or something that you should stop which we’ve talked about before that you need to change somehow. It’s like this negative reinforcement will snap you out of it and realize that you should just stop being introverted, which we just want to be like. We’ll socialize, but let us do it on our terms, right.
0:14:38 – Jess Gorman
Absolutely yeah, Not on yours. There’s definitely a sense of no empathy. No empathy, no understanding of what this person wants, how they need to be, how they choose to be. And it doesn’t sound so hurtful on the surface but, honestly, the more that we’re talking about it it is hurtful. I mean, I don’t want my loved ones to think that I don’t want to be around them and it makes me feel like they’re thinking the worst of me when I don’t join them for those social situations. Sometimes it warrants a conversation.
0:15:23 – Phil Rickaby
It’s like you know. I think the issue is that this passive, aggressive questioning is something that all that does is make us not want to be there, right, and I’m not entirely sure, and even with your explanation, which I sort of understand, I’m not entirely sure what the person who is saying this thing is expecting us to do.
0:15:56 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, honestly, it comes to a point where you think the worst of it of. Do you want an apology? Do I owe you something? Are you trying to really let it out how you feel? Are you upset with me that I don’t do this? It’s hard to say what the context is.
0:16:15 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, and then there’s also, of course, the question of like my response to response that I would want, like my gut response would be along the lines of well, I was going to, but now forget it.
0:16:30 – Jess Gorman
Yes, I have a very vocal friend of mine, very old friend but vocal, and I very distinctly remember somebody did the social punishment to him in front of a group of friends, and they did. I forget what the line was, but it was definitely along the lines of well, I don’t know who decided to join us and his was I didn’t want to be here. So now I really don’t, right, I’m gonna go now. Any left? Yeah? Yeah, it’s like don’t know what to tell ya, but it’s humiliating, yeah.
0:17:08 – Phil Rickaby
You know, like I, obviously we know where it comes from in our having received it, but there is still the question of, like I don’t know what the person who’s doling it out thinks was going to happen. Hmm, were we suddenly going to say, oh my goodness, I was introverted and now I’m not, because thank you for making it like pointing out that I wasn’t here, but now I am Big death? I don’t understand it, I and and it catches me right Because it’s like I don’t see how, in that situation, if the tables were reversed and that was said to them, would they want to be there?
0:17:53 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, I think that especially holds true for people we don’t really know all that well that do that to us, like coworkers, for instance. That speaks a lot about their character. Because you’re right, what do you want from me? If the tables were reversed, you would be feeling very humiliated right now. So to me it says that this person doesn’t have a lot of empathy, can’t really think outside of their own existence. That’s a problem.
0:18:21 – Phil Rickaby
0:18:22 – Jess Gorman
So I think it says more about people that we don’t know than it does our loved ones, our loved ones. I feel like it just comes from the frustration and not knowing what to do with us. Sure, what do we do to you?
0:18:35 – Phil Rickaby
But it may also come from like you know some of the like. If it’s, if it’s like a family get together, it’s probably it may out be like that it may come from, like one of those uncles or aunts that you see once a year or something, then has this corrective. They’re the person who’s also likely to say oh, look at you, you’ve lost a bit of weight, it’s a start, which is like the like oh no, no, it’s time for you to get a smack.
0:19:06 – Jess Gorman
Let me tell you how many times that has happened to me at Thanksgiving. Oh my God, what is wrong with these people? I, okay like I grew up in a time where eight year old, eight year old Jess would say I feel really bad about myself. Other words were used, but I’ve grown up out of it and I don’t care anymore. And I remember saying this and relative saying to an eight year old you know, if you just did some sit ups, you’d lose that tummy. An eight year old that gave me such a complex like worse it did, don’t think, of course it did.
0:19:52 – Phil Rickaby
It’s such a of course. And also like for an eight year old, like, leave the kid alone.
0:20:00 – Jess Gorman
An eight year old in the 90s. Okay, low rise genes were on the rise. Those were traumatizing.
0:20:08 – Phil Rickaby
Yes, oh yes, sorry, I was just a low rise. Genes were on the rise.
0:20:15 – Jess Gorman
I know. Thank you, they really appreciate that. Thanks, but I mean there’s, I’m a writer.
0:20:22 – Phil Rickaby
There’s. That is another form of social punishment. Right, it’s the end, but that one isn’t really related to the, to the introversion, but it’s like that’s the kind of person who doesn’t know you very well and makes a whole bunch of assumptions about you. Yeah, in the guise of oh, I’m just trying to help.
0:20:40 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, no, and there’s no compassion there, whatsoever, none whatsoever. I’m wondering what are the more how shall I put this Delicate ways of navigating those situations, because some of I believe there are some listeners who do not have those tools and I might be looking at one of the hosts who doesn’t have it, yet You’re looking at when I tell you why I struggled because, because, well, maybe my wrist, because my gut response right now is somebody is like oh look, who finally decided to join us is go fuck yourself and I walk back into my room.
Right, that’s right. The anger bubbles I am. I get so angry really quick and I get snippy and mad, and then I get passive, aggressive, and again I’m really trying hard and so when I say like I just have to keep deflecting, it’s for everybody’s own good, no.
0:21:46 – Phil Rickaby
I get it. I’m a Virgo get it and I’m, I’m. You know it’s not listen. I think go fuck yourself is not passive aggressive, it’s just aggressive, aggressive, Pretty direct, directly aggressive. But that’s like the instinct, and of course you can’t necessarily say that to family, in which case I go, go fuck yourself in my brain and then I go away.
0:22:13 – Jess Gorman
And it’s thank goodness. I only see you once a year.
0:22:16 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, anyway, exactly, exactly, oh my gosh, I know good way to deal with it and that is the question and I think I think it takes tact.
0:22:29 – Jess Gorman
It takes practice and it takes workshopping, because there are so many different things that you can try. And this is one of those moments where we, as the introverts, guide to host, say say what you mean, but in this situation probably best not to because you might escalate.
0:22:46 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, it’s a family gathering or family something and somebody is throwing that out, you probably go fuck yourself. Is not going to get you a good result.
0:22:56 – Jess Gorman
Once again, we’re going to repeat that telling someone to go fuck themselves may not be the best. Wait, let me write this down because I think I need the reminder.
0:23:05 – Phil Rickaby
Let me just you know I’m going to write this. Do you want it nice and slow? Please want me to do it again. Do that again.
0:23:09 – Jess Gorman
Absolutely Telling someone to go fuck themselves, fuck themselves, fuck themselves, fuck themselves, fuck yeah, real emphasis on the fuck themselves.
0:23:23 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, underline that yeah themselves.
0:23:25 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, there you go, you got it. That was beautiful. May not be the best way.
0:23:29 – Phil Rickaby
not be the best way to de-escalate, de-escalate, we’re trying to de-escalate de-escalate.
0:23:38 – Jess Gorman
Oh see, there in late the confusion.
0:23:40 – Phil Rickaby
There was, there was the issue right, there is the, we got it escalation.
0:23:45 – Jess Gorman
We really avoided, avoided a catastrophe right there.
0:23:48 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah because, I will admit, I am not good at that, and so my only option I’m good at de-escalated, but in the moment my desire is to tell that person to go fuck themselves. And so what respond like? What is a better response? Maybe saying nothing is probably what I end up doing, and then I sit in the room and maybe by saying nothing, everybody will finally ignore me. And then you can just Irish goodbye it yeah just sit there for a little while and then just be like well, and get up and just go.
0:24:23 – Jess Gorman
And see if, had they have just played their cards right and not singled you out, they could have gotten a smoke bomb show.
0:24:30 – Phil Rickaby
I mean, look, here’s the thing, and if you are somebody who has an introvert in your life and they you have. You have said this in the past or you may feel that you are likely to say it in the future when they join you. Did you say something along the lines of look, who decided to join us, or something along those lines? Know that if you say nothing, the introvert is more likely to stay. You will get the result you actually want by keeping your mouth shut.
0:25:05 – Jess Gorman
It’s an act of trust and I think that if you are the victim of these social punishments, maybe find a gentle way to forward this and tell you know the person who needs to hear this to maybe fast forward to around what 27 minutes, 27 and a half minutes, something along those Give or take when it’s third or 26, give or take 26. We’ll see what happens during editing and just tell them hey, listen, it’s an act of trust, baby, okay.
0:25:38 – Phil Rickaby
Are there situations that are not family gatherings, that might be at school or something like that, where social punishment happens in a different way?
Give me an example, besides school, work and family, I mean here’s the thing If you’re in school, for example, if you’re a young child in school, you’re in high school, let’s say you know, because I think that that social punishment, social punishments start happening when you are in, you know, grade two, three, four, somewhere around there, as you’re developing your personality, as your introversion is starting to come out, somebody may start. A teacher may take you aside and start telling you that you need more friends, which is like sometimes, if you’re the rich, traumatizing. You’re like I would settle for one.
0:26:28 – Jess Gorman
I’m, I’m fucking good, but thanks Like no fucking thank you, you know, of course.
0:26:35 – Phil Rickaby
Then you get sent to the principal’s office for swearing them or something along the lines of you know you should speak up more in class.
0:26:42 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, it happened to me once at well, I used to be a brownie, that was part of the girl guides. I always opted out for the sleepovers because I didn’t want to go sleep at the church that we went to and I just I didn’t really have that many friends. I had one, but like they were there every other time. We met right and I got pulled aside. And the only reason why I remember this, by the way, is because my mom found a whole bunch of my old like my old memorabilia and like had to show me it and then I remembered it. So it all kind of came flooding backs.
This is pretty recent, this getting this memory. And I remember being pulled side and by our leader and she was like look, I’m really concerned at the fact that you’re not coming to these sleepovers and I don’t see you like Going out with any of the other girls and we have a lot of get-togethers and when don’t you think it’d be really fun? And I feel I have a distinct, distinct memory of my little seven, eight-year-old self Flooding back and going but the comforts of my room.
But, my super Nintendo. They’ll never understand. And then I just remember saying like I really am okay, I just want to come and learn, like you know, survival stuff, how to build a fire, go in camping and Earning my badges. That’s about all I want to do and I didn’t really stay. After that it felt it felt humiliated. I felt like everybody was thinking I Just no one liked me. Yeah, and then I blame myself for the whole thing, sure, of course.
0:28:35 – Phil Rickaby
Who else you’re gonna blame? Not not like the fact that you socialize differently?
0:28:41 – Jess Gorman
I Was kidding here’s a.
0:28:44 – Phil Rickaby
Here’s a story from I remember I was in I think it was around grade Six or seven, okay and it was gonna be we were going the school or our grade was going to be going on A sleepaway adventure in like January, february, march in there.
Oh, my goodness, it’s tween fill okay and I want to be going for several nights to like this, the conservation center. We’d be sleeping in like cabins with our classmates and and it would be doing social things and and, and there would be no escape. And I knew this exactly as they were like yeah, it’s gonna be like you’ll be sleeping in cabins with your classmates and then we’re gonna, each day, we’re gonna get together in the In at the lodge, and we’ll have breakfast and we’ll sing songs and we’ll do this thing and then we’ll go out and we’ll do outdoors stuff in the cold. Now, first off, they lost me within the cold, yeah, and outdoors, and then they also would lost me with, like cuz. I kept thinking like what the fuck am I gonna say to these people? Like I don’t want to be with them, I just want to in the cold. I don’t want to be like, I want to go home at the end of my day and get away from school people.
Hmm and I was stressed about it. I was so Stressed about it like to the point where I was like I don’t what I’m gonna do, but I can’t do that, I don’t want to do it. I was like asking my parents Is there some way that we can, like you don’t sign the permission form or something, anything?
0:30:28 – Jess Gorman
Did they send you anyway?
0:30:30 – Phil Rickaby
my family went to Disney instead.
0:30:31 – Jess Gorman
Oh, yeah, okay.
0:30:36 – Phil Rickaby
That week to Florida and I was so thankful that I didn’t have to worry about that at all. When they told me, the Relief that fell from the heavens on to me was just like an I exhaled for the first time in weeks.
0:30:53 – Jess Gorman
Okay, so wait. Follow-up question. Follow-up question. Okay, so your parents are like you don’t have to worry about it, don’t worry about it now. Did they say, hey, we got a surprise for you, it just so happens. Or did they say, well, think about it. And then they surprised?
0:31:08 – Phil Rickaby
I don’t this is a long time ago and I don’t remember exactly how it all panned out. I Don’t know if they had been planning it already and it happened to fall on those dates or, which is probably the likely thing, is it just just happened to be serendipitous or something? I doubt that they changed the dates To accommodate this thing, but it has so happened that that was that those were dates that we were going on, all I remember. I don’t remember how they told me, I don’t remember the details, but I know that the sense of relief I felt that I wouldn’t have to do that was like, I Don’t know, like, like, like being blessed by the heavens or something. It was that intense because I was so Stressed about having to spend time with these people outside of school, most of whom were not my friends, who I didn’t particularly like, and I didn’t really want to make small talk with people I didn’t know. For all that all like, for even like three nights, however long it was, I didn’t want to do it.
0:32:14 – Jess Gorman
In the cold.
0:32:15 – Phil Rickaby
I’m just again in the making it in the cold winter we were going to be snow shoeing and I was like I don’t want to do that.
0:32:21 – Jess Gorman
It’s outside, it’s good you lord, oh my gosh, your era was scary. It’s tough being a genital children’s snow shoeing.
0:32:33 – Phil Rickaby
I’m sure there was like supervision, but you know what that may have been negotiable to. It was the seven, it was the yeah, it was the early 80s, late 70s or the 80s of you serve terrible time yeah.
0:32:48 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, no, you went somewhere hot, you were good and it was.
0:32:51 – Phil Rickaby
It was you know. In fact the funny thing is, just side note, when we were in Florida everybody who lives in Florida they had been like, they had been like frost. So they were the orange, the oranges, the orange crops, and Everybody here was dressed in sweaters and like you went to, you went to, they was like everybody’s wearing long pants and sweaters and we’re shorts, we’re like wearing short pants, like shorts, t-shirts and we’re just like going around cuz you know it’s hot for us and it’s like playing a game. Yeah, the Canadian.
0:33:23 – Jess Gorman
Absolutely. Oh my gosh, we go. Canadians go anywhere tropical, and if it’s even so much as like Four degrees, it’s just it’s above we’re flip-flopping thing.
0:33:35 – Phil Rickaby
It was probably not more than like 20 degrees. There was probably not lower than that, but they’re like yeah, so whatever the story was, we gotta go. We’re gonna go down to see reason, get there. Whatever, I don’t even know what the stories are. Jc Penney we’re gonna go to JC Penney, grab, buy a parka and people be wearing like layers and we’d be like this is stupid, it’s so gorgeous. Anyway.
0:33:59 – Jess Gorman
Yeah and anyway. When you got back from this trip yes did you get any sort of comments from your classmates or teachers? No, I’m just curious yet Nothing.
0:34:10 – Phil Rickaby
No, they knew I was going away. The teachers knew I was going away so they were like all you missed a great time because I Was in Florida. You’re not gonna make. I think everybody knew who got the better, exact I, you. I was not gonna be made jealous of their snowshoeing adventure in the cold, I was in Florida.
0:34:30 – Jess Gorman
That would be a time to crack out the hole. You’re full of shit. If you think that you had more fun than me, you’re full of shit, okay everybody knew.
0:34:38 – Phil Rickaby
Everybody knew they did not have more fun than me. They did not.
0:34:42 – Jess Gorman
Good, I’m glad they needed to know oh.
0:34:46 – Phil Rickaby
They knew, they knew.
0:34:50 – Jess Gorman
Do we have any sort of like, like I’m, we’ve been going through this, we’ve been working through this. We’ve always got something, but it’s just a. I feel that it is okay sometimes to not know what to say in a moment. Do we have one little snippet, even just a tiny little advice of if they do that, you are in your right mind to walk away and not say anything? Or well, maybe say something, nothing altogether, it’s one of those difficult things, because what again?
0:35:25 – Phil Rickaby
you and I are both at a loss. For what do you say in that situation? That does not escalate this situation? It’s touchy because you are hurt and you are more likely to lash out when you are hurt and say something you may regret later. So I think, if you can’t come up with anything to say, it’s probably best not to stammer or spotter. Don’t stand and go. Well, just try saying nothing If you can turn around and go back to your room or go back to your dwelling, or socialize for a brief period and then bail.
If you are in a college situation or you have roommates and they are having a party and you have spent time in your room, you went out to get a drink. You ran out of what provisions you had taken in there before so you could avoid the party and you go out and somebody drops one of those comments on you. Try a shrug, because I think that my best advice is not to say anything, but because my response is probably to snap or to be snide.
0:36:49 – Jess Gorman
I think in work situations too, there is a sense of professionalism that needs to be maintained.
0:36:54 – Phil Rickaby
If it’s a work situation, obviously go fuck yourself is not the way to respond, depending on the work environment. Even in most work environments, responding to that will go fuck yourself. It’s probably not going to get you far and might get you called to HR, so it’s probably best not to do that. Silence is probably your best bet in those situations.
0:37:20 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, practicing, practicing, practicing Maybe just the one. Find one that works. Like we said earlier, this is something that takes a lot of tact and a lot of practice. So don’t be upset with yourself If you do stutter and stammer that first time. It’s going to happen. And don’t be discouraged from that, because I’m not exactly quick with the quips all the time we are obviously. Most of the time I am. I just want to make that very clear.
0:37:50 – Phil Rickaby
Yes, most of the time yes, but I think, because in this situation we feel attacked, that the our ability to say something snappy, to come back with a great comeback, is hampered because we are coming from a place of hurt. For me, in that instance, probably silence is the best bet.
0:38:14 – Jess Gorman
I feel like if I were to do the silence, I would stare a little too long and then I creep everybody out. Yeah, but that’s not passive, aggressive, that’s not, it’s not, but I freak people out Good.
0:38:31 – Phil Rickaby
Part of me is like listen, if you can, if you can pull off the dead, stare. They say that and you don’t say anything, you just like.
0:38:39 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, like mine would just turn out to be like Just leave, I just be gone, just leave yeah. Yeah, pretty much.
0:38:54 – Phil Rickaby
The stare may be very effective in that situation just to say nothing and just like stare at them and then walk away, either to socialize for a bit and like be in the room, or to just go back to where they came from.
0:39:09 – Jess Gorman
We’re going to get so many angry emails from people that tried our methods.
0:39:15 – Phil Rickaby
We know silence will not hurt you. Saying go fuck yourself will hurt you. A stare may not hurt you and it may get the idea across, but it certainly won’t get you fired and probably will get you in trouble with all the people.
0:39:32 – Jess Gorman
Listeners, we’ve had such a great time being your, your go to.
0:39:35 – Phil Rickaby
I don’t even know if we’ve been helpful.
0:39:39 – Jess Gorman
I feel like in this, I feel like our episodes lately, we’ve just been wanting to offer more solidarity, because not every situation is going to be easy to navigate. The first time you try it and in the again practice, practice, practice it is. It takes a lot of fortitude to build that skin and be able to navigate it with just grace and with with the class, and enough to turn the situation around so that no one cares anymore. Right? Is it something that you’re going to want to do? Nope, is it? Is your fight or flight going to take over? Yep, you won’t be able to think about our advice. Our voices will not be in your head.
0:40:24 – Phil Rickaby
No, not at all.
0:40:25 – Jess Gorman
So it’s like we may not feel helpful, but we can certainly say we’ve been there.
0:40:31 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, shall we go to social? Yes, all right, maybe they’ll be helpful. Let’s find out. So we basically asked on social media what are your experiences with social punishment and how did you deal with it? Abwax said whenever I get to, whenever I get such directed my way, I just withdraw and I will usually stay away, except if it’s something I can’t avoid. Then I’ll sew up when it’s absolutely necessary and leave when I’m done. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, oh, this is this is this one.
This one is. This one is is is choice. Louise said my grade 10 English teacher when we were reading. I remember mama assigned me the lead role of mama so we can hear what Louise’s voice sounds like traumatizing for a shy and introverted teen. I’ve never forgiven her. I did get back at her, though, on her birthday. Later in the year a group of girls were at her desk, guessing her age 2324, I, who had done the research, looked her dead in the eye and said 31. Her mouth dropped open. She never bothered me again.
0:41:55 – Jess Gorman
If I could clap and not hurt the microphone, I would right now. That was beautiful, that was sheer poetry. Also, I’m 31 right now and my mouth was a gate. But here’s.
0:42:05 – Phil Rickaby
Here’s the thing about that If you, if you’re a teacher, and you have in your class a quiet person who is studious, bookish and always does their research, don’t fuck with that child. Do not fuck with that child, not at all, Because they will burn you like that.
0:42:29 – Jess Gorman
So bad? Oh yeah, they the thoughts and ideas that these clever teens get.
0:42:38 – Phil Rickaby
Oh yeah, yeah yeah, shocking. Do we have any internet?
0:42:46 – Jess Gorman
Do you want to know why we don’t have any internet or we have any internet? It is a really tough research topic.
0:42:54 – Phil Rickaby
0:42:55 – Jess Gorman
We get the because you get more like in our situation. You’re going to get more discussions about what happened and how it made us feel. You’re not going to get ideas about how to navigate it. So the internet failed us and I really wanted it to the internet. I wanted to make you cringe. Well.
0:43:16 – Phil Rickaby
I mean, even if you did maybe cringe, if they were helpful tips. But I think I think that the people who mostly talk about it, or the people who have experienced it, and I think everybody who experienced it finds themselves in the same position where you’re stammering and can’t find something good to say.
0:43:34 – Jess Gorman
Yeah, and you just feel like sinking into the floor and you feel very alone because of it, and meanwhile it’s something we all experience, thankfully.
0:43:46 – Phil Rickaby
Well, unfortunately, we do all experience it. We’ve all experienced it in one way or at one time in another.
0:43:53 – Jess Gorman
You have a thank goodness, we have a good little community for that right, that’s right.
0:43:57 – Phil Rickaby
That’s right, mm-hmm. So did we learn anything today?
0:44:12 – Jess Gorman
I learned not to say go fuck yourself.
0:44:17 – Phil Rickaby
That was gonna be mine. I wrote it down, remember. I said not to say go fuck yourself, yeah, yeah.
0:44:32 – Jess Gorman
I am reminded not to be so hard on myself when it does happen, because it still happens. It still does as much as my family knows me. They’ve listened to my podcast. Hell, they’ll probably be listening to this episode. It’s still gonna happen and it hasn’t, thankfully, so much happened with friends. I work from home, so my co-workers are all over the place and I just have to meet them through Teams. So when it does happen with my loved ones, it stings a little bit more because it’s so rare for it to happen and it still makes me feel misunderstood. But I know who I am, I know I love them and I am always going to make the time for them and the frustration that they might feel with me isn’t on me.
0:45:24 – Phil Rickaby
That’s a really good way to look at it, because them being frustrated with you is not really about you. It’s about their reaction to what you need, which is unfortunate because we’ve talked about saying what you need and at this point you and I have both said what we need in social situations of people that we love. They know that we are introverts and that we need a certain amount, and if they are still reacting to our late or delayed arrival at some kind of social event with some form of social punishment, then did they listen at all is kind of the question.
0:46:05 – Jess Gorman
And fuck them. I’m feeling aggressive tonight. Forget the passive aggression.
0:46:13 – Phil Rickaby
Forget the passive aggression. You are on with the aggression Boom.
0:46:17 – Jess Gorman
She is out to play. Oh, you got a kid, I heard for sure. Absolutely, and I feel like it’s something to do with the Virgo in me, something in the air. Maybe, but here it’s a Virgo moon. I don’t know what that means. I have no clue what that means.
0:46:42 – Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I could probably find out. Are you finding out? Not right now? I’m not going to let you. Oh okay, I’m not like, I’m going to find out like now, but I can find out, yeah, okay, I thought I saw the wheels turning.
No, I was like how would I find out? Yeah, so that’s how I can find out Stuff like that. Anyway, friends, thank you so much for listening. As you know, and as we’ve said so many times, we give you this podcast every two weeks for free. We don’t ask any money for it. We don’t charge you for it. We don’t even have any advertising on this show. We don’t have sponsorships, but we give you this show every week because we enjoy doing it, we enjoy giving you this product and we enjoy the community that we’ve built as we’ve done it.
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